Edie Arnold Is a Loser

Hey Robb, were you ever in a band? I was in a band here in Los Angeles and we played at the Rainbow on the Sunset Strip and everybody left when we got on stage and we never played again. Oh. And now I'm a Christmas caroler. That's pretty sad. Oh hey, I think Christmas caroling is the most punk rock thing there is. Man, that is the least punk rock thing you've ever said. [laughs] [upbeat music] Hey, hello, and welcome to the Indie Film Lodge, a podcast about the nuts and bolts of independent

filmmaking from the bottom up. I'm Matt Jackson. And I'm Robb Padgett. And today we'll be talking about energy: how to imbue it into the work, keep it on set, and continue it through post-production. And today's guests: Kade Atwood and Megan Rico, who made the incredible Edie Arnold Is a Loser. Hey guys, welcome to the show. Hi, thanks for having us. Oh, weird. This is that. This is that. This is exactly what we're looking for.

Oh my gosh, so much energy. [laughs] Listen, I’m just glad I didn’t say "Ernie Arnold." I see it's Edie, I know an Edie, and I still was searching for Ernie... We would be pretty quick. No one ever says Ernie. Everyone says Eddy Arnold. Yeah, is a guy. Yeah, is a guy. Yeah, he's a real singer-songwriter. Yeah, country-western singer. Yeah, we had a guy show up to a screening in Seattle, and he was like, 'I thought this was

going to be a documentary about Eddy Arnold, the country singer.' [Unclear dialogue.] And I was like, 'Oh, sorry.' He loved the film, though. And I was like, oh, okay. I don't know what you guys have against Eddy Arnold, but he's one of my personal heroes. [Unclear dialogue.] It's like, I love country music. It's like, this is clearly not a movie about country music. Well, so it's not a documentary about Eddy Arnold.

What is Edie Arnold Is a Loser about? It's a coming-of-age comedy about a bunch of dorks in an all-girls Catholic school that start a punk band and piss off a bunch of nuns. You know, just your classic, your classic run-of-the-mill story. Something we can all relate to. Yeah. We pissed off some nuns. I mean, that's always been a dream of mine, but I was not allowed in any nunneries. I did go to Catholic kindergarten and I'm old.

So I went back when they wore the habits. Yeah, they really did hit me. They hit me on the hand and they made me stand at my desk without my chair because I would lean back in it. So they just took my chair away and for the rest of the day, I had to stand there. Man, did you learn your lesson? I learned my lesson that I hate Catholic school. That's the lesson. So I really enjoyed the buoyancy, the energy, the vibe of this movie.

What did you look at for inspiration going into this? I think people are sometimes surprised by our inspirations. Well, because a lot of people clock Scott Pilgrim. That's kind of the first thought I feel like that we get. And for sure, we love Edgar Wright, but we tried really hard not to watch any of his films

in the lead up because then we knew we would just rip him off because he just is such an influence on us in general. So we really studied a lot of Coen brothers, specifically Raising Arizona. We love anything that feels like a live-action cartoon and I feel like that was their zaniest film. And then a lot of like Spielberg, which is kind of embarrassing to say for our film.

I don't think, like, us— Of course, of course. Of course, of course. Coming-of-age, and it's got kids doing kid stuff. I mean, I get it. The big reason is because we filmed the movie in 10 days, and we had a very limited amount of time. And so we had a limited amount of setups that we were able to do. And so the way we got around that is we would do one or two setups for some scenes, but then we would block the actors in a way that's really interesting and keeps the scene

feeling dynamic. Yeah. And so Spielberg is really great at doing that. And especially early Spielberg, he really sits in a shot for a long time and kind of lets the scene build and is not like cutting around a bunch and that's something that we really loved. It felt like it. And it's incredible that the cast was so, I don't want to say inexperienced, but they didn't have a huge credits list, but they were so confident on screen.

Really. I think it's just like a fact they were inexperienced. For, I think, almost all of the kids, it was their first feature. Yeah, their first feature credit. For our lead, Adi, who's incredible, it was her first audition she had ever done. Now she's ruined. Yeah. She's going to be a little bit more expensive. She books. But I think for us, it was really good having like, I don't know, working with actors without

so much experience because they didn't come in with any bad habits. Like they came in like green and fresh and excited to be there and we got to like sort of shape their expectations. I don't know, to be like, this is what it means to be professional and to be prepared. But then also like, this is what you can expect from a film set. We wanted to give them sort of like a point of reference going forward in their careers where

they're like, okay, wait a second. I was on a low-budget indie film and they didn't treat me like shit. You know what I mean? Like if they are being treated like shit in the future, they can point to like this and be like, wait a second. I know it doesn't have to be like this. They had no money. Well, that's good. That's good. You're really setting them up for a horrible future. Yeah, how do you do?

It's all downhill from here, kids. I will tell you my favorite. There's two things I want to tell you. One is that my favorite character was Frances, and she reminded me of Mabel Pines a lot. Yeah. And I didn't know if that was intentional or just kind of a kismet of like everything, but it just screamed Mabel in the most perfect way. Not intentional at all, but I do love Gravity Falls and I think I love Gravity Falls because

I was a Mabel. That's why you're wearing a sweater right now. Yeah, that's cool. Oh, hi. And then the vibe reminded me of Bottoms, that zany and cartoony energy, like, was really evident throughout. And it was just, it was, it really took me. I really enjoyed it. So it is kind of cartoonish, but the Coen brothers sort of aspect of what you were talking about. And the wackiness is rooted in, like, real characters

who want real things and do real stuff. And so that's what makes it nice. It's not just wackiness for the sake of wackiness. It's wackiness because the person is a little crazy. I feel like for our film, the way I think about it is like we wanted to be like heightened and wacky for lack of a better word, sort of to like be a better reflection of how, I don't know, when you're a teenager, your emotions are so heightened and the way you

perceive the world is like so exaggerated. And so I feel like by having these sort of zanier performances or crazier characters, it just like reflects that experience a little bit more than if you were to just have a more grounded, you know, like they're real characters, but yeah, the experience, it just feels bigger when you're 16. And I think our taste is like we love absurd humor and like stuff that's maybe a little

outlandish, but then immediately after that you're grounding it again with like this very, you know, realistic scene between this mother and daughter. And like we kind of love that pendulum swing of like, okay, maybe you know, you know, it's getting a little crazy over here, but then all of a sudden we're bringing back into reality. We love, like, you're laughing, we're laughing, we're crying, we're laughing. That's an

ideal trajectory. Sure. Well, it worked. I mean, I wasn't weeping, but you know, I'm not a teenage girl with a mom in identity issues. So, so it was kind of zany, there were madcap antics happening, but it was filtered through the like, you said the lens of like a kind of manic sort of teenage kid. And none of it was like, none of it was unbelievable. Do you know what I mean? Like, it was a believable sort of zaniness.

You don't need to have these wacky way out situations to make wacky way out things happen. Like borrow instruments in the craziest way possible. They can enter a band competition in the craziest way possible. Yeah. Well, like all comedy, There's a bit of control there because I've worked on those movies where like, eh, it doesn't matter. We're doing something wacky and cartoony. You like throw everything in and it ruins the whole vibe because you need, you need something

to hold on to, some good emotion, some good drive to play you through. Yeah. And Kade and I are, I think, very controlling of our dialogue a little bit. I don't know if I feel like people often are like, oh, how much was improvised? And like, because I think everyone sees a comedy and it seems that the whole thing is improvised. And we're like, literally one line, one line is improvised. Wow. Everything else, we were kind of militant about it.

And it like comes across that way on the page. Megan's such a great writer that like, it's very concise and like, there's not a single extra syllable, not a single extra word, single extra punctuation. And so when an actor does add something to that, it suddenly just throws the tempo off in a way. It's like, oh, now the joke's not going to quite land the right way. So we actually need you to say the way that it is written exactly like this because that

is going to be the funniest. But also that's just like, again, like a testament to Megan's writing and however she is that like that tempo comes across on the page. I feel like that's so rare on a script. It's extremely difficult to do to get that tempo to come across and she's great at that. Thanks, but I will say when an actor doesn't understand the tempo inherently, it does make you feel like you're the worst writer who's ever lived.

So I feel like, for the style of dialogue, like the style of jokes that I write in dialogue, it is like, I don't know, 50% setup, punch, 50%— That is the rhythm. And so when the rhythm is thrown off, it's like, I don't know if this is good. So we were lucky that we had like we cast actors that did kind of inherently understand the pace that we needed from them. But again, especially because they're so—I don't want to say inexperienced, but because

they're so inexperienced, like, that's a real skill to have, to be able to read the script directly. I mean, half the time I have something in front of me to read, I still can't read it for me. And it's hard. It's really hard. Their inexperience might have actually helped in this case because, you know, you get jaded after a while, you're like, whatever, I'll just say something close. The lines don't have to matter.

But when you're doing something as intricate as that, it's in the trailer and it's also in the movie where they're pitching the band idea to their friends in the cafeteria, that kind of rhythm of that, this basically a song, I'm assuming, you kind of had to rehearse it like a song. That's funny, we actually during rehearsals, we pulled out a metronome, and we're like,

bam, bam, just every word needs to be on this beat. And again, when we were on set, again, it was like, here's the tempo, say your word on the tempo. But they did such a good job of not giving it away. I was like, there's no way they could do this without learning it like a song with, they're not playing it like a song, they're playing it like dialogue. Yeah, and they're not like, telegraphing at all, like, so good.

Because yeah, it's really difficult to like, deliver precise dialogue like that and still make it sound like it's off the cuff. And I really feel like we got so lucky with them, because they all were able to do that. Yeah, well, so moving on from inspirations and all that, there's a thing we like to talk about on the show. We call it the OPM. We're not excited about what we've entitled it, but we're sticking with it because we're stubborn.

Every movie has these three moments. It's the obsession, the thing that got you started. It's the pivot, it's the thing that changed everything for the better. And then the miracle, something that shouldn't have happened that did happen. So to start, what was it about this that made you obsessed with making it? What about this idea was like, oh, it has to be on screen. For me, it was the characters.

I mean, well, I'm gonna say two things. One, I think Megan and I were just determined to make a movie. We had a call one day, it was like, we're gonna make this movie, whatever that means, we're gonna make it happen. And we didn't have any money, we didn't have any resources when we decided that. And it was just like pure determination and grit that made this come to life. And I think that we were obsessed with making a movie.

But then I also think when I first read this script, I was obsessed with the characters because I feel like I was friends with all of these people in high school. And I had not really seen them portrayed on screen in this way. And so I was really excited to bring this portrayal to life and show teenage girls in this way. I feel like a lot of times they're like airbrushed and like hot 30 year olds. And that is not what being a teenager is like at all.

And so we wanted to portray a more realistic version of that. Yeah. I feel like for us, the obsession, it almost is sort of reverse engineered because like, we had been working together on other stuff, trying to like get other films off the ground in like a more traditional way. Like, not scripts that I had written, but I was doing rewrites for Kade to direct. And we were, like, trying to attach talent and trying to get financing in a very traditional

way and it just kept falling apart and kept falling apart. So finally, Kade was like, Megan, do you have anything that we can just make for cheap? And I was like, I'll level with you guys. I mostly write genre comedy. And this was the only one that I had in the bank that like doesn't have aliens in it right now. [Laughs] I was like, high school story. It's probably cheap. I'm sure there's no aliens.

There's no aliens. And then I wrote it so long ago, and it was really heavily inspired by my own coming-of-age. And so to me, I was like, oh, this is probably so generic because I lived it. And so I just kind of sent it to Kade like, on a lark. And then it was really Kade's reaction to it that helped me realize that like, oh, I really do want to make this one. And I really want this to be the first one that we make because it feels like, I don't

know, just feels like such a good introduction to the world of like, this is us and this is our energy and like, this is what we like to do. So the obsession with the script kind of came after we'd already decided to make it. Sure. Well, so were you in a band in high school, Megan? That's the only part that didn't happen, okay? All of you. All the, like, all the losership. Earlier you said something about you didn't weep because you were a teenage girl with a

mom and identity issues, and I felt seen in a bad way. So yeah, like the mother daughter stuff and just like growing up in Miami, which is like a very specific world and that Catholic school system is so specific and horrible and strange. All of that stuff was real. And then like, much later in my life, I like found my people through art making, but for me, it was filmmaking, not music. Sure. And actually you answered a small question I had because I noticed it was set in Florida

the movie, but you shot it in Utah and I was like, why is this set in Florida? And now that makes sense. My wife is from Tampa or ish and so anytime something is from Florida, it's like, but why?

And where and what part of Florida? So that's another thing that I feel like. I was kind of a non-negotiable for me. And we shot in Utah for lots of reasons. We met working there and a lot of our friends and our network was out there. So like we were able to get crew and people that we trusted. But I felt like the Miami that I grew up in is like so different from the Miami that you see on screen. I didn't grow up in the Miami of South Beach and, like, coke dealers and, like, crime.

That's not really it. It's like a suburb. I don't know. It's like a weird suburb where everyone's Cuban. Like I don't know what's up. And I feel like I never see that. And so it was important to me to sort of put something as close to that as possible on screen. I got it. I understand how that is where you grow up, not in one of those big cities, but it's, you know, probably big cities have the, their identities that are not necessarily what they

actually are. I mean, we live in LA. LA is not the city you see on movies. I mean, it is, but then it's not. But mostly not, especially just how hot as shit and dusty it is. So okay, you uncovered this dusty old script that worked. I love that. You know, somebody who has a big pile of scripts is always nice when something you wrote a long time ago, like finds new life. That's great. So as you started it, I'm sure it wasn't a straight shot from like, we're going to make

this movie to like, now it's on screen. So what was the major hiccup along the way that made you shift how you're doing things?

Was there one or was it just a straight shot because you're so good at what you do? No, no, we had no money and that changed everything. Yeah, do you feel like the biggest, the hiccup was money? Because okay, money buys time and lack of time means lack of prep. And so I feel like that really changed a lot of things. It's interesting though because like, it's hard almost to reflect on what it, what we

intended because I've lived with what it is for so long now that it's like hard to imagine it being any other way. So I do have to, like, think and say, like, what did we want That's different. I mean, I think the thing is like, we didn't really pivot through when we decided to make the end of production—principal photography—ended. And there were multiple moments where it was like, but we need to push back production

and it was like, okay, we're going to film in July, which was, we decided to make the movie in like April and then we were like, we can be in production in July. Immediately we knew that was way too insane. And then we cracked August, and that was also crazy. So then we pushed it back to September. But then the issue is that if you push back any further, you're in Utah with all these trees that are going to be orange and yellow and not look like Miami anymore.

And if you go any further, there's going to be snow on the ground. And so we took multiple moments where it was like, oh, we need to pivot. We need to push back. We need to wait to shoot this. And I was like, well, if we do that, we're not going to be able to shoot until March of next year. And we are way too impatient to wait that long. And so we just kind of continued chugging forward and like made everything happen.

And like, instead of us going out and raising more money, we changed our plan to have less

shots and less shoot days. We went from our 15 day shoot to a 10 day shoot and like, we compressed our shooting schedule to accommodate for that. And so I guess that's kind of the pivot is like, we changed the creative a bit. But also it feels weird to say that because we're so happy with those changes that we made. And we feel like that created those creative decisions were actually the best choice for

the movie. And we're really glad that that happened. It would have been nice to have like some time to do more takes.

Sure. Well, and I guess I don't mean pivot as in like something terrible happened. I mean, normally something terrible happens. But inevitably, I always feel like the pivot is that moment that you're that you get very creative and something shifts of like, oh, yeah, I have to change this because of things

they can't control. I think money is always one of those things and changing, changing trees and not waiting until March to shoot, which by the way, I think is insane. We really, like, I think we painted ourselves into a corner in a way that really served us because I think you never are going to feel ready, right? It's like, I feel like it's like having a baby. You're never going to feel ready. There's always going to be a reason not to.

And so I think by painting ourselves into such a corner, we were like, ah, and then someone just, like, pushed us out of the helicopter. But I think I have a good specific moment that like the pivot happened for us and it was when we were shot-listing the bulletin board scene when they, like, fly on the bulletin board. Because we shot-listed that and we were initially like, what, 20 setups or something?

Yeah. And then we looked at our schedule and we had time for two. And that was really the moment when we were like, oh, we have to like fundamentally change our approach to this. And it forced us into that shooting style that we like had to learn and like, develop for this. And it feels not, it feels like a pivot not just for this project, but kind of for our creative practice going forward. I just feel like we really gained such an appreciation for friction in the art-making

process and like, yeah, the creativity that is forced out of that, you know, and that's I'm sorry. It's alright. Nobody can see your obscene gesture. Oh, I'm not. I'm just kidding. [Unclear dialogue.] But yeah, so I feel like, yeah, that was a big pivot for us in the movie and then also just going forward because it really forced us to, like, crystallize how—as efficiently as possible, how can you get across exactly what you need to get across and nothing more?

Well, and I actually want to talk about those shots later on after we get out of this little section where we start talking about the energy because I think you came to the same conclusion I came to with my movie, but I actually, since my movie is smaller than yours, I got the coverage. And I wish that I hadn't almost, I wish I would have had to have planned the shots without the coverage because the coverage while I could control the pace in post was not helping

me on set. I wasn't making creative decisions. I was just like, and then we're here and then we're here and then we're here and then we're here. So I want to talk about that later after we get past the miracle part. I mean, I suspect the miracle part was the nuns and Jesus and all that. We prayed and it happened. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like I'm thinking when you're thinking of what you say yours is it's probably

different. Oh, really? Oh, but I don't want to spoil anything. Oh, are you thinking the end? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But then we're both. Big, big, big for us was the ending of the movie, which we don't want to talk about in specifics because it's so fun for us. But initially we were like, planning on, I don't know, how do you talk about this? We planned on an ending that required more resources than we had.

And we kept like scaling down the lift of the ending. It was like, okay, well, instead of doing this big thing, what if we do this midsize thing? Okay. And so if it's this thing, we'll do this little thing. And like even that, like bottom level tier thing, like didn't turn out. I was like, what do we do? We don't know how we're going to end the movie, like the most important thing. And we came to this solution.

We were just like riffing in the car and like pitching like a joke solution. And it's basically like a joke perversion of what we had intended initially. And we had a moment where we were laughing so hard and we're like, oh, that would be so funny, but we can't. We can't do that. And then we're like, oh, yeah, we can. It's our movie. We do what we want. Yeah. So then that's like what we went with. And it ends up being like one of my favorite audience moments in the entire movie.

And it all, yeah, was just born of, like, we have no way to pull off an ending. My daughter watched part of it with me. And I thought it was very funny. Yeah. Well, a more specific miracle is our movie is like a music movie. It's like a punk movie. And we initially had planned on licensing truly just so many fucking Ramones songs. Like, obviously

we did not get like we couldn't get the rights to that because we didn't have the money for it. And so the first song that the band plays at the open mic is that punk-rock cover of a hymn. That was supposed to be 'Blitzkrieg Bop' initially. And we couldn't get it. So it forces us to like go back to the drawing board and think about what we could do. And I think it's way better. It's like way funnier and I'm so happy.

It's way funnier than just them playing 'Blitzkrieg Bop.' Plus it comes from their lived experience. It comes out of who they are. It's very specific. You know, and I was shocked again. These actresses were incredible because I noticed that they performed all the songs themselves. At least they're credited as performing all the songs themselves. That's nuts. Yeah. They all sang them. Adi plays the drums on those tracks.

Alexa plays the bass. The only one who's not playing is Niki's not playing guitar. Yeah. But that's it. Yeah. They're all very talented. And they like Adi didn't know how to play the drums coming into it. And she learned for the movie. And then yeah, by the end of the movie she was so good that we ended up recording her drumming for the track. Nice. It's amazing. Well, actually, well, let's get to Rob's big question.

We wanted to talk to you about the energy of the movie. You guys have brought a lot of good energy with us so far. But you know, it's hard to translate the energy and excitement on set onto the screen. And it's really hard to do it without editing tricks, like MTV-style, like fast cut editing. Overlapping dialogue. There you go. And I really loved it. And I don't have the first question because I haven't thought about this yet.

Robb has a great question now. It's not necessarily a question. But the reason I want to start shooting like the way you shot this is that with the energy on set, I mean, it doesn't only works if your actors can pull it off, which yours could. But you get to control the energy of the whole, like, the whole scene. I mean, there's, there's cuts here and there, but that you're controlling the energy. When people are coming in and out, when they're delivering their lines, how much space is

between those lines. And those kids are super precise, which I mean, maybe that's the miracle. I mean, because I don't know. I know a lot of actors and those kids are very precise. You know, the kids in America? Maybe, like, our cast. They are. They are. All of them. One thing to that though is we worked really hard. So we made this movie in 10 days, but we did not overwork our crew. And I think a lot of people hear 10 days and they're like, oh, you were working like 16, 18

hour days. We were doing 12 hour days and there was only one day we went over and it was because the grip truck broke down and we had to transfer all of the gear to the other truck. So it was out of our control. And we really wanted our crew to have a good experience because we have worked in a lot of lower-crew positions, on sets where it's just like a nightmare and you're not having a good time. I in particular have had a lot of experiences as a PA where I'm not having a good time.

The entire production staff is not having a good time. And then that starts to bleed into the entire production because PA is literally touching every single department and interacting with every single department and that energy translates to the rest of the crew. And so we wanted everyone to have a really great time on set and also that like we ourselves like went and met with the PAs beforehand and wanted them to feel comfortable and like

that they could come to us if there was anything that they were hearing about on set. Anyways, we like worked really hard to create a very great environment on set because we believe that influences the entire production and I think that is a big reason that everyone on set was able to have such high energy and continue going like, I mean, don't get me wrong. We're still doing a lot of setups in a day and moving very quickly but I think our crew

is able to do that because they're enjoying themselves and like believe in this project and believe in the entire team. Yeah, like the exhaustion turned into like slap happy delirium instead of like embittered like anger. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I mean, some of the best advice I ever got was that as a director, as a person like heading the shoot, you need to really keep an eye on how what your energy level is,

what kind of energy you were putting down. And I guess it's one thing to foster a high morale and make sure everyone's happy and do all that. But the flip side of it is you also kind of need to be the taskmaster to make sure things like you said, as precise as they needed to be. So how did you find that balance between, hey, we're just hanging out or slap happy but also I've got this metronome and it's got to be like this for each line.

Well, like honestly, that's something that I struggled with at first because I don't know if it's just like because I am a woman and it's like part of the female experience but I think it's very difficult sometimes for me to like assert myself without feeling like I'm being, I don't know, like a diva or something. Sure. But what helps is to just realize that like as the director, like you're the leader of the

ship, right? You're the captain of the ship and like people want to know what to do. They want you to be decisive. And if you're trying to appease someone else, all that really does is like leave them without instructions and then they have to like make an uninformed decision. I don't know, I've been in lower crew positions where I don't have the like most direct instructions

and then I get really anxious because it's like I just have to guess what you want and it's a 50/50 chance that it won't be right and then it feels like a rejection or it feels like I've done bad. Whereas like if you know what you want, just tell them, just tell them what you want. Well also like being open if they have like a yes and on top of that, like that's the best part of filmmaking. So being direct, it doesn't like negate collaboration and in fact it oftentimes like facilitates it.

I feel like learning that was really important. Well it's sort of, I mean I don't want bring you back to relationships in general but I sometimes have this conversation with my wife. Sometimes I have to know what you want to be able to give you what you want. Sometimes it's important to tell people you can't make, don't keep it a secret. It doesn't need to be a secret. Just say what you want and then we'll figure it out.

Yeah. I think realizing like not everyone's brain works the same as ours and so like our first thoughts and then it feels obvious to both of us because our brains, we always kind of have the same first thought. Yeah. Which is weird. But not everyone else. So something that feels obvious to us, you know, you take it for granted that like your art director is going to have that same first thought but then they don't.

So you have to be very explicit and you have to tell them exactly what you want. Yeah. That's what I actually would I struggle with sometimes. Get very frustrated. I'm like this is so obvious and I don't think about, it's only obvious to me. It's not obvious to them. I've got to be more empathetic. Well, and how do that work between the two of you? So this is your first feature together. Yes. You mentioned, Megan, that you gave this to Kade to helm, and you guys are partners directing.

How did that happen and how is that on set? Like are you guys always thinking the same thing or is it one point something playing good good cop and then, you know, playing bad cop? He's so funny. Well, I'll tell you how it happens because I feel like, I don't know, I really like this story because I don't know. Kade, like you said, I initially sent it to Kade for him to direct and he read it and came back and was like, I love this so much that I want to make it.

But it doesn't feel like it's my story to tell on my own. And he was like, I know you want to direct. I would love to direct this with you, or if you want, and this story is, like, too personal, you can direct it on your own and like, I'll just produce it for you. Which I don't know, I was very touched by that, just like that level of support and like respect from like a creative partner. So I like went off and thought really long and hard about it and I did like a pros and cons

list and all of the pros were like, you get to share this in like this immense workload. Like the collaboration is like the best part of any like art form. I don't know, lots and lots of pros. And then the cons were just like ego based. They were all just like, but then it's not my movie. [Unclear dialogue.] I don't get top billing. And so that's when I was like, yeah, I think let's do this one together.

But it was our first time directing together. Which is like, I don't recommend that. I think, like, we got extremely lucky. [Unclear dialogue.] I know our co directing partnership is great, but like for someone to be like, I'm going to try out co directing on a feature film. It's a one in a million shot that the partnership actually works out the way that ours did. And so that was like where the luck I think came in.

But on set, I think we thought that there would be like a very clear delineation of who's going to manage what, but it ended up just being whoever really is most passionate about the note is going to be the one to deliver it regardless of like who, what the department is or if it's cast or crew. Yeah, I think we thought that, hey, because I come from a writing and performance background and Kade comes from a more technical background.

So I think we were like, 'Hey, he'll talk to camera and sound and all the technical stuff and I'll like mostly handle performance and like art department and things like that. And that was like not the case at all. We learned pretty quickly that like you have to kind of be a united front on all things. And so we were kind of just glued to each other. So it was just more symbiotic than we anticipated.

Yeah. Yeah, so I mean, it's a lot like parenting. You have to have a united front or else the kids will take advantage of one of you. Yeah. Yeah. [Unclear dialogue.] [Unclear dialogue.] But another thing that was really beneficial about directing as a partnership was that like

you have two brains tackling the same problems at all times. And like it's like the flip side of the fact that everyone's brain doesn't work the same. It's like if I had a note, like if we had a note that I'm trying to deliver or give to someone and it's not coming across, then Kade can tag in and be like, hold on. Let me like reformulate this in a different way. And he just kind of like doubled your ability to communicate with people, which is

right. And then I would assume that helps keep the creative conversation going, like empowering people to do things because it feels like a conversation. It's a conversation between the two of you then is a conversation between everybody. Yeah. Yeah. I think also, yeah, going in as a duo, like, keeps the fact that film is a collaborative art form top of mind. fall into that trap of, like, of auteur kind of—sure,

I think works for some people, but it's not like my vibe. So it was like very nice. We're a team, and then we're all a team. Right. I mean, there may have been one or two times. And I'm like, Hey guys, it's my movie. All right. There may have been one or two. Yeah. I didn't think about it. Yeah, there was certainly a moment where we were like everyone stopped. [Unclear dialogue.] I don't know. [Unclear dialogue.]

I mean, you do have to do it sometimes. Like I like the opinions. I don't need them all at once. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm ultimately going to make this decision, or me and you together. Right. And I ask a technical question. Yeah. Okay. I recognize Sony footage using Sony cameras, right? Again, I'm going to beat this dead horse. I love the Sony cameras for low-budget productions because they can shoot almost anywhere.

And if you can't set up a light, you don't always need one. So who made that decision to make this movie that way? Because man, it really worked. I mean, it was a conversation with the two of us and Brenna Empey, our DP. It's exactly what you just said. You can hit the dual ISO. You can be in really dark spaces. We knew where we were going to be in these music venues that don't have any windows or any

natural light. And we'd have to use like the stage lighting that was already like built in and then maybe supplement with a fill or something. Like we just need to be able to maneuver and be in multiple different scenarios. And then we're also shooting outdoors. And so that camera just has such range. And so that's kind of why we went with that one. Yeah. Because it looks really good. We really love, like, having a deep depth of field.

So it's just, yeah, so like everything's in focus. And so yeah, we wanted to give ourselves like as much of a chance of getting that as possible even in, like, low-light scenarios. And it really worked. And again, I do post-production mostly. I mean, when I'm not directing. And the post-production was really excellent on this movie. The color grade was really nice. The footage looked great. Sounded good.

Just, it was very impressive for the budget. I don't know how much, if that budget was built in from the beginning or if you raised it after you shot part of the footage or what? It actually might have been our miracle. Yeah. And we were hitting above our weight class with the team that finished this movie. And Kehan, our colorist, used to work for Company 3 and is, like, a genius when it comes to color.

Well, I watched him build a sunset in front of my eyes. That shot where, like, they're in the car driving to the football game. It was like, right middle of the day. And I just, it just wasn't making sense. And I just watched him be like, hold on. You like created a fucking sunset. Now it's dusk. It's like awesome. That's awesome. I love post, how you can do all that stuff. What, what are you going to say?

Go for it. No, I— and the sound mix. Yeah. The sound mix, Jess Parks, same thing. Like, we edited half of this movie on like a laptop remotely in like, it was just the

most low-tech way to edit a movie. And then we got into the sound mix and Jess Parks like hooked us up with this incredible soundstage. We walked into this soundstage and we were like, oh no, we can't afford this, to be here. That is funny. I've done that too. I've gone into like, I'm here editing in my bedroom. And then they'll like come to the sound mix and I walk into this giant studio, this huge

projector and like, stadium seating. I'm like, oh, this is the sound mix is having a better time than I am at home. Yeah. So I guess I would like to talk about regular posts before you get to post posts, which we're already in. But, you know, so you shot this and you had such a good process on set and there is a rhythm you get into, especially with 10 days, but post drags. Post can get real, real depressing as somebody who likes posts who gets into posts and all

that stuff. But how are you able to continue that vibe and make sure things stayed fresh as you watch the same scenes thousands of times? I don't think we have an answer. But is that is that where the animation came in where you just like, you know, what does this need something? Yeah, I noticed by the way that you guys did your animation in the VFX and it was very good. Congratulations guys. That was part of our long, sad year of post-production.

Only a year? That's pretty good. Yeah, but it was a year like every single day, every hour of our lives. Like, Kade and I both, I mean, this is important to say about filmmaking. So we had ourselves as having partners that support us. Okay, this is important. Kade and I were able to pour every waking moment of our lives for a year into this and we were only able to do that because both of us have partners who have paying jobs and love

us deeply, and also my building in New York is in a lawsuit and I haven't paid rent in a year. Truly the only way for people to do this. So yeah, I was like only a year, but it was all of the hours of that year. And I should, what that looks like is Megan did all the animations herself and she would take it out to a bar when they went out in the evening and then Dave, her husband would like be drawing in the animations because Megan's hand was in so much pain that she couldn't do

it anymore. I was like—because I needed—okay, but also we're psychotic. I needed the textures of the animations to be dynamic and I found like it only do that I found I could only do that And some of these animations, usually animation is done on twos, so it's like 12 frames per second, but some of them had to be done almost like rotoscoping, so it was 24 full frames per second, like the pizza one.

And I had to color truly a thousand fucking pizza slices. So I would do it everywhere and my husband and I would go to the bar and I'd like tag him in. I'd be like, you need to color these five pizzas. And then, well, if it helps, my daughter's favorite moment is when she has the devil horns in the tongue and then that's her favorite part. She talked about it all night. There's nothing better than having a supportive partner, spouse or whatever it is.

When I made my feature, I immediately jumped back into work, and I was, like, getting swamped and I was missing meetings and all that stuff. My wife told me she's like, hey, why don't you just worry about the movie and we'll figure this out. And it was so helpful. It's such a privilege to have that opportunity. Like, my gosh, you think that the hard part ends when you make the movie, but then it's,

it's like, you're just done with a fun part. Yeah. And also, it's like during that year of post, we're not always the most fun people to live with. You know? Like, I like, I definitely crashed out a couple times because we put all of our time and all of our money into this project. And there's a moment in the post process when you're like, did we make a bad movie? And it's like, no, you just have to keep going.

And I'm familiar with that moment in screenwriting. Like I know that thing of like, write a shitty first draft and you're like, whatever, this is a reflection of me, the person. I'll just rewrite it and it'll get better. But experiencing that on a feature film, I wasn't prepared for it. I wasn't as equipped. Also, one thing we learned in post is you're learning so much as you're editing. And because we work, we come from short form.

So we've never made a feature before. We've never made anything this long. And so we would go through the movie and edit all these scenes and then we come to the end of the movie. And then by the time we've arrived at the end, it's like, oh, we've learned so much. Now we want to apply it to everything we did at the beginning. And we started redoing the process and then we realized like very quickly, oh, we're just

going to be a snake eating its own tail because we're going to get through the movie again, have learned so much and then want to restart that process over again. And so there's a point where you have to just be like, this is it. It's good enough. Yeah, what was it? Films are never finished. They're only abandoned. They escape. They escape. Yeah. So how is, just because I'm curious, how was your first screening?

Because that's always terrifying. I did that first screening with a bunch of people and my movie was specific and I had all those same moments of like, oh, my gosh, these things. But our third act was like, it was a big swing and was a big miss. And I remember sitting afterwards and my editor was freaking out about like all the stuff we had to redo or this and that. And I would focus it on the positive parts and like the similar things.

But how was your first screening and how badly did you freak out? Well, our first screening came pretty late in the process. And I freaked out, but before we get to that, I do want to talk about, we did like send it to friends. Yeah. Yeah. Sent to a lot of friends. It's interesting that we're, I don't know, I feel like we're talking so much about how high energy it is and how we kept the energy up.

Our first round of notes was like, the movie is slow and kind of boring until like end of act one. Yeah. That freaked us out because we were like, what? How do we fix this? And we realized a big part of it was the opening credit sequence that we had initially shot was just not working. It wasn't anything like the one that's in there now. That one we shot on a pickup day with like a skeleton crew of like everyone you see on

screen and then also Kade. And like initially it wasn't, it didn't have any energy to it at all. And it wasn't like signaling to the audience the kind of film that the rest of the movie was going to be. And so yeah, that was like a weird note to get and it felt really bad because I think negative notes only really feel bad when you realize that they're right. It's someone like, doesn't like something and you're like, that's wrong.

You're wrong. Or it's not for you. That doesn't feel as bad as someone pointing out something and you're like, oh no, you're so right. You're out. But also, I think the like lesson in that is also like we thought the entire first half of the movie was not working. We'd have to recut the whole thing, but then we just reshot the opening credit sequence and then it solved the rest of it. And so it's interesting how little tweaks sometimes, and also sometimes, like, the

note can be like, I think we were more focused on like the pacing of the first half of the movie when in reality it was just the opening of the movie. And once we fix that, it solved the rest of the notes. So sometimes notes can be directed at the wrong place. You need to be very careful about how you're applying notes that you're getting from other people. One of the like a piece of advice I would give.

We had our cast and crew screening. It was brutal. I like, that's another thing. I still don't think like the first time you show a movie to people, it's ever going to be a good experience. It's all going to be really difficult. But one like very applicable note that everyone should do is just turn the volume up on your movie. It was like wait, just bad in a comedy because then people don't want to laugh and then we're

like people don't like the movie because they're not laughing, but in reality they're just trying to hear the next joke because it's moving so fast. So anyways, turn the volume up when you screen the movie. That is good advice. It's also good advice about the credits and not that you need to do fancy credits like you have, but you got to set expectations of what people are going to see for your movie

to come. And that's what the beginning of your movie is really for is not just to tell them what kind of movie it is, but like how they're going to watch it. How you feel about the movie you've made. And also, I think there's this thing I used to work with these guys, they called them 'Pebbles in a Pond,' that sometimes it's a little note that has big ripples. And so sometimes it's not that something is broken.

It's just that you need to do one little thing early and it will ripple out into everything else and fix it. Yeah. Thank goodness you didn't re-edit the whole first half of the movie, because I think the first half of the movie works really, really, really well. Thank you. I think that there was not nearly as much music in it when we showed people. And that was another lesson. And it feels obvious to people I'm sure, but to me I was like, oh right.

Oh, right. There needs to be music in the movie. Music and sound. Music. Yeah, it's like that Godzilla movie a couple of years ago. We're going to show everything except for the monster. Just leave it all to imagination. So I know that we're coming to the end of this. We have two big questions for you before we let you go. So now that you're at the end of the process, you're touring with it, it's doing great.

It's going to do even better. If you go back in time to warn yourself about anything at the start of the process, what would you tell yourself? You know mine, and it's—go ahead. Just get footage of your actors entering and exiting the frame. Yes, as an editor I can say absolutely 100%. Because you know how much do you think you need it? How much it hurts to watch raw footage and hear an actor be like, you want me to enter

you know, just stand on your mark. It was a time. Past selves are jerks and future selves deserve it. Or listen to yourself go cut before they've made it off frame. Or there's a moment where we're so tired you can tell us again night shoot and whenever actors like, should I be looking here or here and you just hear my little voice so exhausted go wherever you want? And then it's... Real one. Real one.

I mean, I know that is real. Okay, that's a real one. People don't know that's a real one. I think we were so ignorant of what it took to make a movie that like I wouldn't go back and change anything because I feel like if we had more knowledge than we had when we set out to make this movie, we would not have set out to make a movie. Yeah, I wouldn't tell us a damn thing. It's going to be great. You're going to do great.

I'm a big, I'm a big proponent of ignorance when you go into a big project like you can't know how hard it's going to be. Otherwise you're not going to do it. Yeah, I mean luckily it's again bringing you back to parenting. It's a little like childbirth. You will forget the pain and be dumb enough to do it again. Yeah, we're already like, oh, we wanted the part of the part of that.

It's great. So we've decided never talk to your past self because only bad things can happen. So, final question for you before we say thank you is: where can people find the movie,

where it's screening or watch it themselves and where can they find you on the interwebs? Great question. Great question. You can go to ediearnold.com and see—we have on our website just all the screenings,

upcoming screenings that are happening right now. We're in theaters. We're trying to keep a really long theatrical window so it'll probably be in theaters until like February or March of next year and then it probably is not going to be on a streaming service. We're working with this company called FilmTrade. They're very cool. Check them out for all the filmmakers out there. I know. I don't have, I'm holding up a card as if I have a card.

I know. It's very politician of you. But it just looks like a little credit card with our poster on it and you tap it to your phone, a link pops up, you click the link, you can watch the movie on your phone, which is not great or you can cast it to a TV, watch it on a laptop. But essentially you own it. It works kind of like a digital DVD that you can watch on your phone or on any digital device without a DVD player.

It's very cool. This is like the way that we're releasing the movie. We'll probably at some point put those up on our website to sell. But again, we want people to see this in theaters because we believe this movie and like especially comedies are best seen in a movie theater, not on a streaming service.

Like a lot of streaming services think they just skip over theatrical. And so we're trying to maintain theatrical window. So go to ediearnold.com. You can find them where the screenings are and maybe eventually buy the movie on there. Oh, and if like people want to see the movie, but it's not like screening near them, it genuinely does help us if you like reach out to your local indie theater and like request

it because we're reaching out to theaters all the time. Like we're distributing it fully independently. Our producers literally like reaching out to theaters constantly and having, I don't know, those theaters having heard of the film before and having had it recommended really helps when we go to book them. So yeah, that would be really helpful as far as where you can find us in the internet. You can't find me anywhere.

Well, the movie. You can follow the movie at @ediearnoldmovie. @ediearnoldmovie on all socials. Not Eddie Arnold. Not Ernie Arnold. Well, thank you guys. Yeah, thank you so much for coming on and talking to us about your movie. Yeah. For nine hours. Yeah. But yeah, nothing but hope for success in the future.

I can't wait for you guys to make another one and come back when you finally made, I don't know, Edie Arnold Is Still a Loser and Now She's an Alien. Well, you're not far off from what we're working on next. All right, that does it for us. If you have any questions about filmmaking or movies in general, please email us at indiefilmlodge@gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you and we may feature your question on a future show.

And in the meantime, tell your friends about us and remember: the only thing that holds you back is you. So get out there and shoot your feature. I'm Matt. And I'm Robb. See you next time. Woo! [MUSIC]