Gap Weekend

Hey, Matt, if you were to plan a romantic weekend with a total stranger, where would you go? Well, probably not to my house. Probably not to their house. I would probably go to a third location with lots of other people. Like a bus station or a public library bathroom? [laughs] Yeah, you know, someplace with a lot of witnesses, just in case. [music] Hello and welcome to Indie Film Lodge, a podcast about the nuts and bolts of independent filmmaking from the bottom up.

I'm Robb Padgett. And I'm Matt Jackson, and today we're talking about sustainability. How to build that production engine that can power more than just one feature. And today we're going to talk to a, that's a lot of todays. That's a lot of todays. That is a lot of todays. So today, I'm going to do it anyway, though. So today we're going to talk to an expert about how to keep the fire burning and keep you in the director's seat.

And that expert is Todd Norwood, director of many feature films, including the award-winning Gap Weekend.

Hello Todd. Hello, it's me here. Keeping the fires burning. Wow, that's a hard act to live up to. [laughs] It's all right. There's a joke there about us a lot of burning garbage, but I don't know you well enough to make that kind of self-deprecating joke. Well, fires come in all shapes and sizes. There's big fires. There's teeny tiny little tiny fires. Yeah. It's the spark that keeps the fire alive.

That's right. So, but tell us about Gap Weekend. Can you give me the elevator pitch of what it is, just in case somebody hasn't seen it yet? Sure. So yeah, Gap Weekend is about a newly divorced guy who had been married to his high school sweetheart. Not only was she his high school sweetheart, but kind of was the girl across the street. So now he's dating, and he's never really truly dated before. And he's going on all these dates, and what he realizes is, yes, he misses being with somebody, but he misses the feeling of being together with somebody as if they were a long-term couple,.

meaning that sense of familiarity, that sense of ease that you have, as opposed to just a normal date. So he puts an ad on Craigslist, and he's looking for a Gap Weekend, which in his definition is similar to how the British take a gap year between college and university,.

he wants a Gap Weekend where to find somebody that can pretend that they're just both pretending that they're a long-term couple.

So it's not a blind date, there's actually no expectations, they have a set of rules, there's no intimacy, there's no falling in love. It's just pretending like that they have the ease of being a long-term couple, and they go up to Santa Barbara Wine Country for their Gap Weekend.

It's pretty funny, we're reminded of a 90s indie movie. Yeah, I mean, I love 90s indie, it's kind of like, yeah, sweet home, yeah. It had that vibe of like, it was like an alcoholic sitting next to an open beer, where it's like, I can totally just sit here not drink this thing,.

and there's that tension there about watching them fail. Well, yeah, the rules, there's no kissing, it's like, okay, yeah, sure, yeah, mm-hmm. So what's the point, what are we doing? Again, what are we here for? It was a really great tension, when I was watching last time, I was like, oh, it's like, I don't know what to root for. To root for them growing or growing together or growing apart, like, it's really fun, it's really, uh, an app fun fun, but interesting.

It was good, it was a good watch, so I don't mean like, it was interesting. Yeah, no, I, um, and there was a, um, there was a pretty famous game that was—there were articles written about it, maybe 10, 12 years ago now.

Um, there's 47 questions, I might have the number wrong, that you ask a perfect stranger and look into their eyes, and if you answer these questions, you will fall in love.

That was the, the articles back in the day about this, and that was kind of an inspiration as well, and that's the game they do play that game.

I use some of the questions, but some of them are brand new, and that's, that's part of the, the themes in the film as well.

Sure. So speaking of themes, let's talk about the inspiration for the, the movie. Um, I know that you've worked on a bunch of movies since Gap Weekend, because I've worked on them with you. Uh, but for Gap Weekend specifically, what are three inspirations for the movie? We can talk about three. You can talk about more. Like, what did you watch to get in the right head space? I mean, definitely Before Sunrise and Before Sunset, which, in particular, Before Sunset is just one of my favorite movies.

I wouldn't compare the two movies. Obviously they're very different, but in terms of a film where the narrative is propelled by conversation a lot...

Those were two big ones. I, I can't recall a third. I know that you might say, well, Todd, it was probably Sideways, but, um, I, I know it wasn't at the time.

Although Sideways is my top five movies. So I watch it every year. So I'm, I'm sure that that kind of seeped in as well.

But it was definitely the Before Sunset films that have always been a huge inspiration, and just a joy to watch.

I, I love movies that I can rewatch. I really enjoy them. And that's what I, at least for me, I try to, I love having worlds that I could, that I want to visit myself.

You know, and, and, and it doesn't have to be vacation films, but, uh, although some of these are, it certainly this movie takes place in, um, a wine country.

But I, I don't know, I just love, I love a, a world where you fall in love with the characters, hopefully, and just love the world itself. So, um, there's a bit of a travelogue sort of feel to Gap Weekend.

Very much so. Yeah. Um, I just love it up there. And I wanted to, um, show that on film. Sure. So I can't think of a third movie. But, you know,.

it sounds like it's like the general 90s indie movie that like, talky, uh, people in a room, talk about their relationship. Yeah.

So for this room, these rooms are wherever you want to be. Like they're, they're out in nature. Yeah. Cause we, it did shoot all over. So, um, and I guess that's, that's what's so great. Now versus those 90s films is that, uh, for the most part, they were really confined by necessity to, to one location or a few locations.

Whereas now, um, the, the world is your backstage, which is so exciting. Sure. Sure. Well, and so after inspiration, like the things that, that got you in the right headspace for this, the other big question we'd like to ask.

The segment that's terribly titled, and we still haven't fixed it, but it's called the OPM. Every movie has these three elements to it during production: it's the obsession...

It's the pivot, and it's the miracle. Because to start making a movie, there has to be something about it that gets you going. So what was the obsession part about Gap Weekend that made you want to make it?

There's two, there's two things and there's, um, I feel like every movie that's a, that's a romance, a romance adjacent like this or dramedy is about, um, people who are finding love for the first time.

You look at any TV show or any movie, and 85% of the time, they're kind of making fun of people who are together forever. Like, the butt of the joke in a sitcom is always the old married couple, right?

And that's the familiarity that they have, whether they're married or they're together or something, it's always made fun of. And even though the thrust of every romance is oh, will they or won't they get together at the same time, every narrative is like making fun of people who then have gotten there and have been together.

So I was trying to be like he's wanting to, I want to explore somebody who doesn't want to just get together like the end of every movie, but somebody who wants, um, this gonna sound more pretentious than I mean it to be. So I don't know they want, but, you know, every, uh, that wants to, that wants the opposite of what most of society tells them to, right.

And I want the sitting in your sweatpants and watching all eight seasons of 24, you know what I mean like that. Like that's, that's, that's goal with the in jokes that they've built up over the course of two decades as opposed to the butterflies of falling in love for the first time.

And that was something I wanted to explore in what Ben in the story is trying to go for is, is to find that feeling.

Well, the funny thing is that's all he's ever known like, you know what I mean, he, his relationship ends and he's like, I wanted what I had. I don't want something new. I want what I had. It might be good for him actually to go out and find something new, but that's okay. I don't have to want what he wants.

Right. And there's a scene earlier in the film where the date that he's on, she's actually wonderful. She's a really great person. Actually, she's a great fit for the goals that he wants in life, but she's not his ex. And that's what he wants.

And, um, and hopefully the story is the, the journey is that, you know, maybe there's, if not something better, something different, but, um, but that was, that was the initial inspiration.

And then, and then another one is there's a scene which I don't want to, but second to last scene in the movie, they see each other and he, he learns, he learns a bit more about her.

And that, that was, that was the obsessions. That was the scene that I had no matter what in every draft like that moment.

That is a, that is a, I know the scene you're talking about and it's, it's a real wonderful moment for both characters.

I think so. Yeah. So those were the two obsessions that I, I just wanted to explore and that was kind of the, the running in every draft trying to figure out how to turn that those two ideas into some kind of narrative.

So absolutely. So I added wine. Of course, like you do. Wine always makes romance better, allegedly—or easier.

Yes, right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Or helps a long term relationship. Yeah. All right. Let's talk about pivoting.

Okay. Because the part of the fun of making movies like this is that you really can't plan too much. And what I've learned is you kind of need to plan to plan. So be familiar enough with what you're going to do that you could like do it almost anywhere.

And that said, what was a major pivot you had while shooting Gap Weekend and why did you have to pivot?

The major pivot was that on the first day of production, our lead actress quit.

What? And what I had to do is move a role, an actress who was in a different role into the lead character's role. And she was actually the, the runner up.

And I don't want to say like runner up in the sense that she wasn't as good. The reason why she, because she's fantastic on screen, why I went with the original actress is because this is, you know, in my head, I pictured the role of Emily, the woman who responds to the ad as this kind of bubbly 90s Meg Ryan,

the dialogue is the same, the lines are the same between both actresses, but somebody who is that personality on screen, that actress didn't go forward.

And I cast Rosie, who I always loved working with and the only reason I didn't cast her is because she wasn't how I envisioned the character because she's very sarcastic.

She's wisecracking. She's kind of one of the guys type personality and vibe. Both are incredible actresses and she, she came in at the last minute in the lead.

And the movie is a better movie because of it, because there's that tension of the lead actor, Ben, who is very shy.

He's never really been on the date except for that one time that he married. And now he's with this somebody who's completely different, who pushes him out of his comfort zone all the time.

And yeah, the lines would have been the same, everything else would have been the same, but I think the movie's better for the fact that Rosie's the lead.

And she is this total opposite of how the lines are written in some ways. So that was the big thing.

Yeah, she's great. She is like so wonderful. And yeah, it's a bright like everybody in it is great, but she is such a bright spot and such a firecracker of energy.

Well, that was a thing that we actually discussed in post was, I don't know, is she too antagonistic towards Ben and I always, but I always really liked it.

I think it's great that she's given him a bunch of crap because for one thing, he kind of deserves it. Yeah. And she kept dropping F-bombs. And at first I was like, oh, this wasn't the tone, but that's what the movie became.

And that's again to your point of pivoting, the movie becomes what it's going to become. And you can steer it, but it's like, you know, steering a ship.

Sometimes you just got to... Yeah, you got to tack into the wind. Exactly. Yeah. Was it scary when it happened? Did you consider delaying the whole thing, or were you too pot-committed to pivot when your original lead had dropped out?

No, with this project in particular, I was hellbent on shooting it, come hell or high water. So we were going to figure it out. And I knew Rosie could do it because she did an amazing audition anyway.

So, right. So yeah, that there wasn't a plan B. It was burn the ships. as it were. That's awesome. Well, and so speaking of finding a new actress that really unlocks the rest of the movie, was there a different miracle that was that happened during the making of the movie?

I mean, finding a fantastic actress who can like really like change the trajectory of the movie is one thing, but there's always that miracle that happens. You're like, oh, that shouldn't have happened. It did. So was there a miracle that I mean, there's a lot. There was a lot that I felt, you know, there's some films where you're fighting every step of the way. And there's some that that things worked out.

But one little small miracle—miracle's too strong a word—but in the script, Ben is, as we start the film, he's living on his sister's couch, and his brother-in-law, who Robb plays, and they're trying to set him up on dates, et cetera, et cetera. In the script, though, it's not his sister.

Sandy is simply his platonic friend that he went to college with and it was always that way and and this just go when we talk about prep and stuff or like I I spend years on the outline.

So we're like two or three days into production and we're shooting their scene together for the first time and she says some line like, and I'm paraphrasing, but like as your best friend, I can tell you you need to go on another date or something like that.

And then somebody said, does he have the hots for her like and we don't want that at all narratively because then it would be a different movie. We want him to be pining after his ex and maybe falling for this new woman.

He can't be falling in love with the woman that he's living with and so I was just like, hey, it's you're the sister just say as your sister and everybody stopped and like, wait, okay, yeah, sure, let's do it and it and it worked.

And It was such a last-minute pivot, but again, I can't the story works so much better that they are brother and sister and I can't imagine any other way.

So that was a very happy pivot or accident or however you wanted to do it. Sure. You guys show the I mean, it's the same thing where it's like you can't hold on to your you want to hold on firm enough to your original concept that it gets done, but loose enough that you can see what needs to get changed while you're shooting.

And something like that, yeah. I mean, watching what Oliver and Sandy argue about, about Ben sleeping on the couch, it's one thing to be like, 'But I've known him his whole life.'

It's like, yeah, I can get him out of here, but it's totally different. It's like, but it's my brother like my brother in law and I have to deal with it too.

Like it just it makes it more of a struggle in a way that is not like, yeah, this helps me too because I remember having the discussion on set is like, she's yeah, sister makes I mean, it makes total sense like it's right there.

And you were like, but we've already shot stuff and I go, but you think I remember thinking back with you like, but did anybody say anything like is there a weirdness here like and then you're like, no, I was like, okay, change it.

Change it. Change it to sister, you know, like because it's an unnecessary complication. Like you said, like you said before, an unnecessary complication to the story.

And I love stuff like that. Just, you know, on your own set, just that's great pressure on set. I mean, I love that stuff. Just pivoting and there's good pivoting and bad pivoting, but that's that's stuff's a lot of fun.

Yeah, it's awful though when you're like, okay, we're going to pivot and then you shoot in like, this is amazing. We've really solved a lot of problems and they're like, oh, but then we caused a whole bunch of other problems. Maybe we should have thought you don't give it a little bit of.

You don't discover those until post that nobody cares about on set. Oh, now we got to make the movie make sense. I just slap a voice-over on you'll be fine. [Unclear dialogue; check audio.] The solution that I'm always pitching to Todd now is, you know, we could just do ADR. So we see them listening and then the person will say stuff that'll make it make sense over their shoulder.

Yeah, just make sure you get the coverage. It's okay. Yeah, and some of the test footage now it reads like a foreign film because it's like ADR, ADR, ADR, ADR, ADR.

Now aside from pivoting and obsession and miracles and all the things that make movies, Todd, the most exciting thing about your career as far as you've made a ton of these, which is great.

There's so many film makers out there who just do one. I'm one of these guys. You make one and it's such a such a mountain to climb to make a film let alone multiple films to the paraphrase Wayne's World, I suppose.

But but you figured out a way to build the sustainability engine that allows you to keep making these movies.

So how are you doing this? What is your secret and can we subscribe to your newsletter? Yeah, I do a newsletter, but I got to post that up more. Well, on a practical level, very simply like, yeah, I do a lot of corporate video work. I have all my own equipment.

I've been doing that for over a decade now. And my whole, my whole shtick is to make boring professions fun.

So I'm used to in some cases, making non actors look like they can really act on screen.

So I've been in a lot of situations like that. So the infrastructure from a company standpoint, from an equipment standpoint is there.

Now, from a technology standpoint in what's changed in the last few years is obviously cameras get better and better and you can use them.

They're more forgiving in very challenging environments. But the biggest thing which happened on Gap Weekend in particular is there were these Tascam lav mics.

And before that, every project I would do be they short or be they features, you know, you've got the big boom mic, you've got all the problems and challenges that we could go on for pages about that.

But these little mics are on each actor and they're hidden and they get very good sound in the beginning on Gap Weekend because this was our first time doing it.

You'd lose room tone, so everybody would just be a little hot on the mic, and Robb edited Gap Weekend, and there was a lot of work involved in that.

Those lav mics have gotten much better over the years, and they're extremely forgiving in almost any environment.

And that is that is the number one thing and so much so that now if I had a big crew would I have a boom operator?

Yeah, I guess. But honestly, the failure point on these Tascam mics is human error. You know, it's either myself or one of the actors forgetting to turn on the mic after lunch break or something like that, right?

It's sure. But that technology in particular was something we wanted to try when that technology was released. I want to say it was a year before Gap Weekend.

I kept saying this is what I want to use. This is what I want to use. I want to try it like this because I think this is a pain point in the previous films and we could make films in a more nimble way.

So technology continues to get better. I always was somebody who I don't look at myself as a technical person whatsoever.

And I was coming off of doing a feature where everything went wrong and it was a big crew and I just it was the only time where I was like, you know what?

If this is what directing is like I don't ever want to do it again. Oh man, the buddy mine who's actually the lead in Gap Weekend was like, you should just be your own DP. Like I'm like, I'm not a DP. I don't know what an F-stop is. I don't know any of this stuff.

And at the time I was shooting like 30% of my corporate stuff when I didn't have a big crew. He said, we shoot that. That looks fine. And I'm like, well, yeah. And so we spent a good year year and a half shooting shorts where I would be the DP and I'd make a lot of mistakes.

To see the camera and how it works? Yeah. And my intention was to be the DP. But Mike Barroga came on, who was really an incredible DP and who understood how I wanted to work, and I ran the camera.

But all the lessons from Gap Weekend I've subsequently used when I am the DP on the films that have come since Gap Weekend.

And if you would ask me 10 years ago, if I would prefer to be a DP, I'd say you're nuts. Just because I don't want to get bogged down in the technical aspects when you're trying to be creative.

But I find that it allows me to direct and line produce better at the same time because I'm modulating the speed of the set, I guess.

And yeah, I mean, I love, I love doing it. And while I haven't been editing most of these films, Robb has. I've done enough editing that I know the levels of what we can get away with.

Like, I don't say I'm editing in my head. Robb, Robb, you are at times on set. But you know, you know, the, the ingredients you need. Yeah. Yeah. And I go back to, you know, I was honest. I did a lot of like, I would make the behind the scenes videos on movies like indie movies, like big indie movies.

Back in the, back in the day when there was DVD bonus features and like, the making of this movie, right?

And I just, it would drive me nuts at the, the waste, right? Like, if I be on a, on a set, and there's a scene that takes place between five people outside in a lawn.

And they want to shoot it at 11.30 in the morning. And the cameras we were using at the time were very unforgiving with harsh sunlight. And so they would spend hours and hours. This big crew creating a scrim and to get that nice light. But it wasted the day.

And I'm thinking we could shoot this at five thirty and golden hour. And it would look amazing. And you don't have to set this up or set that up the day before. And, and bulk shoot a lot of cool scenes that need this diffuse light.

Like, they just weren't thinking smart from a producing standpoint. But it's still like, what is all this waste? What are we doing? All these people are just sitting around doing nothing, you know? But I get it. You know, you're making a movie and you want to like, you know, especially if it's your first or whatever it is. Like, there's, there's always that level of almost like an imposter complex where like, well, if I'm making a movie, I have to have the grip truck. I have to have the big silks.

I have to have the big things making movies is inefficient. And then I move on. I've been there. Well, it's funny because this last movie that you shot, which we haven't, you know, hasn't been edited yet. But just for the weekend, which I was in, I had to, I was trying to explain to the people who hadn't worked with Todd before that this is going to feel very weird.

This is going to feel strange. You're going to feel like, what the hell am I doing? Is this going to look like a movie is it's going to be garbage?

Because it's so pared down and it looks so I don't want to say amateur, but it does feel that way to some people I say, but once you've done it this way, yeah, once you've done it this way, you're going to like it better as an actor because you're moving, you're acting, you're not spending your time waiting for somebody to do something else.

You're just going to be a flow to it that you're going to enjoy and to a person they did. So that was nice. And they've seen the past work. We sent people Gap Weekend go, it doesn't look like garbage.

Yeah, and you know, each project gets better and better. You know, hopefully we're all learning and I certainly know I enjoy it and I see that I've gotten better from a technical standpoint.

And that goes back to, I'm a huge Robert Rodriguez fan and I've probably made a lot of mistakes early in my career trying to emulate his career.

But one thing he always said was like, oh, if you're creative and you can learn the technical stuff, that is the key because it doesn't always happen the other way. You know, the technical person doesn't always learn how to be creative.

And it took me many, many years after hearing that advice to actually do it, but it's very true. But yeah, certainly the way it looks and the manner of filming.

What I love about it is you think of when impressionism came around, right? Like there were traditional painters going, who are these crazy people who are in a cottage in the South of France and they're going out without a crew by themselves and a couple of their painter buddies and they're painting just on a canvas in the sunlight, like in a field.

That's nuts. We need scaffolding. We need to paint the Madonna on a ceiling. Like, this is not art. You know, and there's no right or wrong way. I'm not saying the other way is wrong, but it felt crazy.

But also it's surprising to me that more people won't do it because, to me, in some ways, like Truffaut and Godard were doing this style to a degree back in the '60s and the French New Wave.

It's the same philosophy when you really boil it down. Yeah, it's a very cinematic way to make the camera stuff. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, although it's just the differences that doesn't look like that anymore. Yeah, it looks. Well, that's another reason that another way that technology has improved. When Todd's now gotten really good at the settings on the camera so that there's not a lot of noise.

So then you just have to get it good enough that you can manipulate it in post production and you can make it look real cinematic and nice.

Real movies do that. Independent movies can do that now too. Nice. Technology. So the technology makes it easier to make these things your day job, which is one of those things that I feel like as we talk about indie features, the thing we don't talk about, which is that a lot of us have day jobs that help build the

toolset. Like I've done a lot of reality work, which has helped me with those kind of soft skills and the kind of hard skills about how production works like you with corporate videos, which is great, which is one of those things to keep in mind.

Like indie filmmaking is one part of the puzzle, but you can make it a larger part of your career. Sure to fuel the other side.

So in more practical terms, I have a question about scaling down your writing, right? I write a lot and I always tend to start writing and I won't limit myself because I just want to get the idea out and the idea ends up being like, I don't know, a thousand people in a space station.

And you're like, well, that sucks and you need to bring it way down so it's four people in a room. How do you start when you're writing one of these things? Do you start small? Do you start with what you have or do you start with the idea and kind of find solutions to the problem?

I got burnt really bad. My first movie, again, going back to the idea of being inspired in all the wrong ways from Robert Rodriguez. And I raise money back when it was like really hard to make an indie film.

And I lost it all on because I wanted to do an action movie because that's what Robert Rodriguez did. And I tried to do something that you shouldn't do on an indie film.

Like I could talk about that for hours. It's one of my most entertaining stories in retrospect, but it wasn't in the time.

My point is, I think that experience scarred me so much that I naturally downscale from the beginning. And if anything right now, I'm pushing myself to be bigger because most of my stories recently and certainly the next number of films coming out are more relationship, dramedy, comedy, hybrids.

And some of them actually are much bigger than Gap Weekend in the sense that we've learned from technical standpoint. We can push things and it's not just people talking in a room for the most part.

But that being said, I haven't done an explosion since my first movie. So I need to push myself. So that's my long-winded answer to say, yeah, sometimes I need to push myself to do more.

Or to make the mistake first, to make something big so you realize that you've got to make it make it small, which is a hard lesson to learn.

But no, but that being said, I mean, similar to everybody, I always write a crap draft to start out with. And if a spaceship is needed in that first draft, then yeah, I'll put the spaceship in and figure it out.

And then once I'm trying to figure out production, then the spaceship will probably turn into somebody's kitchen stove or something. And also, so now thinking about it, there's ways to do this where you scale stuff up, but just on a couple of days. Like I got this big set piece.

It's going to cost some money. For two days, we're doing these big set piece with some crew. And then the rest of the shoot is us wandering around town with the camera and some lavalier mics.

You know what I mean? Like, you save some time. Oh yeah. And I think that's where we'd be going towards. Yeah. And just to kind of round this out, how big are your crews while you're shooting this stuff? Is it just you and the actors already have like somebody getting a lunch?

Do you have somebody tapping on the shoulder to keep the clock like I've been on every type of set in terms of directing on these though.

Each one I find to get smaller and smaller because we're more efficient. So I suppose Robb, are you if you're acting in it, do you count yourself as a crew member?

I'm going to have to go there are times where if we're counting Robb, it's just the two of us. The last movie was just you and then every once in a while, if I wasn't in the scene, I would pick up the second camera and shoot. Yeah. And I've just become it's out of necessity of being like, okay, I know I'm very good at breaking it down the script and how long it's going to take now.

I don't need an AD to tap my shoulder. Sure. I would love to have somebody to go pick up the food, but thankfully nowadays there's DoorDash. So I just pass, you know, you know, I mean like there's ways around it or what would be the sweet spot? Yeah, maybe like five crew members would be a sweet spot.

Sure. Or more Robb's shaking his head. No, I've now sold on like no crew members. Like I don't want crew around fucking up my shit. I just want them to stay away so we can work.

Although I mean, maybe an assistant would be nice, but yeah, so there's another way that technology has made things better. It's DoorDash like you can just hand your phone around to everybody in the cast and go pick something. And then at the end when it comes back to you hit order and then it comes in an hour and that's when you take your lunch. It's much more efficient now and line producers and ADs used to hate me because I would love pivoting, you know, I'm just like, oh, but the sun's great over here.

Let's just do this scene. Oh, and you know, and the actors, it's treated more like a stage play.

In the moment, you're not stopping to be like, okay, I'm saying this one line and now we're relighting and resetting up. Because I will re-light and set up as they keep doing their scenes again and again, right? And I've tried to explain this to people too, but the way that you shoot your movies, it's an independent film. And with independent films, you should get one or two takes. You know, that was the old standard.

Like we don't have a lot of time. We got to move the camera, the people, whatever. We don't have any of that stuff. So you can get seven or eight takes in an independent film.

whereas before you couldn't. So like it even helps the acting. And everybody's like, wow, these movies don't look so low budget.

And it's like, well, partly because the acting is better because we have more time to, you know, get stuff right. Yeah. I mean, for me, it's the acting and story, you know, number one. And I mean, I know of filmmakers who direct a lot of movies, but they're generally improv based movies.

And, you know, everybody has their personal taste. For me, I'm a classical, like, the sword's above the mantel in act one...

Somebody's getting stabbed in the third act. You know, I'm big on traditional storytelling. And so improv from a story perspective just that scares me so much. Which is why I spend a lot of time on the outlines. And that's not to say that like we don't build in some moments where if actors are riffing and Robb's really good at this, sometimes adding a great punch-up on a scene.

You know, that stuff's great, you know, but the story is there. You're not figuring out not that I, not that I've done a mystery recently, but you're not figuring out who killed, you know, somebody, the body that's hidden in the closet.

You know, sure. Yeah, I always figure that good improv in film has the structure of the story to hang off of. So everybody knows kind of their lane to be in. So, you know, it helps.

Yeah, and tying it back to Gap Weekend. The questions that the couple asked each other throughout the film. Some of it was based on that article from 12 years ago or something like that.

Some of it was stuff that I wrote that needed to be said for the plot to continue. And then some of it, while I was like, guys, just surprise each other and ask each other.

Random questions. And there was some great gold that was found in that. So that's targeted improv that I love watching and seeing come to life.

Yeah, I mean, I always love to give actors a little leeway to find something. I'm a big believer in elevators—somebody who will take your ideas and kind of take it to that next level.

I worked as a story producer where every idea I had was shot down. But what was great is that you'd work with an editor, you'd throw out an idea, and they'd be like, 'Oh, I see what you're saying,' and then they would take it up.

And you can see what they were doing and you could take it up and you work together that way. I'm a big fan of that kind of collaboration. But it's hard to find the right balance to make it work.

Well, there's some sky team to start with and the exact well, so funny because I always make the joke that I'm so old now that I don't memorize my lines.

It's really hard for me to do it unless I'm like, if I'm if I'm rehearsing, I can memorize my lines in like two two times through the scene. But then I'm like, Oh, I don't know my lines and I'm a joke that I improvise all of my lines.

And then I go back and post and I look at the script and I find that I'm actually fairly close to the lines that Todd wrote. And I'm like, I don't know how that happened.

But I got there somehow because I always feel like I'm making stuff up, but I'm really not making up as much stuff as I think that I am. It's in the script. Maybe changing some words here and there, but that's about it.

I mean, recently I thought you had improvised something, and I was going back to the script just to check something else out, and I was like, 'Oh, that was in the script. Oh, that's right. Okay.'

Robb screwed this up. And you look like, 'Oh no, it's actually brilliant.' And so the last I have one last question about about the actual like nuts and bolts of of making moves this way. But what's the what's your timeline from like maybe from when you start pre production, but when you start shooting to when it gets ready to be released.

Like what's that timeline? So Gap Weekend was the first experiment in a years-long experiment to see about this method of production. And COVID happened right in the middle of it.

And the film was basically done. But then it was like, well, let's wait a year. Let's wait till the film festival circuit gets back going. And that was two years. And then it was.

Okay, oh, no distributors interested. Okay, well, that's going to take a year to do negotiations. And then they wanted to wait till the right time to launch it. And then subsequent films were still figuring out the post model.

And I was about to release one of the subsequent films. And then based on the data I got from when I was releasing Gap Weekend, I'd seen how the business model of film distribution had changed.

Even since the film I did before Gap Weekend, called Chasing the Sun. And so the audience keeps changing the behavior. A prime example is say seven years ago, there was a business model that was much more robust where even if you had a movie with people who weren't extremely recognizable in the cast, people would buy that film or rent it.

But now cut to seven years later. So everybody's sick of all the subscriptions they pay, and they're like, 'God damn it. I just want to watch this. If it's on my thing, I'll watch it. I don't care.' So then the model has changed to the Tubi model, right?

But that's changing too, because there's so much stuff out there. Tubi's getting more and more picky. Let's not say that's not the best model, Tubi. The point is, things have constantly changed. So about a year—less than a year ago—I realized, 'Oh, I have all these films that are almost down the pike. Maybe I should put the brakes on some of them and put the pedal down on the others, so that they're all roughly coming out at the same time.'

And I can hopefully use a rising tide lifts all ships mentality when I release them. Not that they'll release at the same time, but roughly the same time. That's a really long answer. Where I would like to go is, yeah, I would like to have it be a cadence. That is the goal.

Yeah, similar to a regular production studio. Without a doubt. But between COVID and then going through learning the distribution landscape and how it's changed in the year and a half or so, I'm redoing the model.

But that's a very long answer to this long experiment that started with Gap Weekend and that's continuing to go on now. Because the methods of production, we figured that out, quote-unquote, I think, and post to an extent, much better each one. And now it's just the distribution is the final piece of the puzzle, which is probably like the final boss. It's the hardest thing for anybody.

And then distribution's the part that kills everybody. I mean, I remember when we were doing LITOM, we took it to AFM to try to do pre-sales.

And that was right after DVDs took a dump, but before streaming took over everything. And even then, you know, you walk down the halls and you see posters with...

What's his face? Yeah, right, like Eric Roberts or Michael Madsen or, you know, Jack Nicholson...

What's his name? Who? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Michael Madsen. Michael Madsen. There it is. But we talked to a bunch of distributors who were like, 'You have to have an Oscar winner or an Oscar nominee in your movie.'

'If you get Tom Sizemore for five minutes, that's going to do more for your movie than having cool effects.' And all they wanted was a big name.

And we had, like, Kane Hodder, a name to put on top of the poster. And even we'd sit in production companies who had a Kane Hodder poster.

And they'd be like, 'These names aren't big enough. Get out of here.' But it was so hard to find distribution and then to find how it worked, because at the time we were doing it, there was the, 'Oh, we don't want to sell to Netflix or Amazon or those, because it will kill the cable distribution side of it.'

And now it's like, 'Yeah, fucking sell it to everybody, because cable ain't buying.' And if you can get on Netflix, that's great, but Netflix will kill any tail you have on it.

And then you're open to the Tubis of the world, which I'm a huge fan of Tubi, both for discovering old films and discovering new films.

And the fact that it gives a platform. But how are they getting picky? Like, how did you get onto Tubi? How are they getting picky, and how is it changing for you?

They're, I mean, they're getting more picky with the ones that are clearly improvised in a basement.

You know, I mean, they have a glut of content right now. So it's not just like, 'Submit your film,' and there it goes.

You know what I mean? I think I'm a big fan now of just not relying on one platform, because even for marketing, right?

Right. Facebook used to be like, 'Oh, if I have 10,000 people following my film page, those 10,000 people are going to see every post.'

And you've got to pay for that now, right? So you can't rely on one model, whether that's Tubi or whether that's Amazon. Or, case in point...

So Amazon, the film before Gap Weekend, called Chasing the Sun, did well on Amazon. But Amazon as of January just changed their model for smaller films that had been released, you know, within, say, over a five-year period.

So I have a lot of filmmaker friends whose films are not on Amazon. And that happened to me, Chasing the Sun. So I need to re-release it, which I'm in the process of doing. But it goes back to what I was saying: don't rely on one source of marketing, platform, or, you know, distributor even.

Sure. That just sucks. It always sucks, like, this bottleneck of distribution. Because there's always that line out there that's like, 'Oh, just do it by yourself.' But doing it on your own puts you in a whole different bracket.

I just feel like having a distributor, even though it can be a headache, having a distributor elevates you in some way. Being on Tubi is great. It's better than being on YouTube for free, but it's still tough to find that balance of discovery and payment and being worthwhile.

But sometimes a distributor doesn't make sense in the sense that nowadays distributors, even the bigger ones, you're expected to do all the marketing.

Of course. They're not the [unclear] to make people see the movies. Yeah. What are you doing exactly? Making a few [unclear] costs? I mean, there's a cost-benefit analysis, definitely. This is dating myself, but the 10,000 true fan model—or is it a thousand true fans? You know, from years ago, which was, if you can find those thousand—or I think it's a thousand—true fans who will follow your work anywhere and pay whatever the main price is for your work...

You have an extreme leg up if they're the true fans, not just because your post went viral on one poster or something.

People who really follow your work. And I think that is, in today's world, that's probably still the goal, even more than a great distributor.

Absolutely. Yeah, the true fans who both support you, but also advocate for you, I think, does a whole lot. Because they know that I'm not going to watch some movie because I see an ad for it. I'll see a movie because my friend's like, 'You gotta check this out.'

I'll watch it six years later, though. You know, whatever. I'll get there eventually. Well, and so the last piece of this whole puzzle, right?

We're talking about distribution, we're talking about all these things, but once you make a movie and you've done it, and so you say you have three or four in the can, like, how do you...?

How do you make the next one? Like, are you self-funding these, or you're just like, 'I gotta do it because I have a sickness where I gotta make stuff'? Or, like, is there a financial aspect to it where you're able to build a system?

Like, how does that all work, in a way that you're comfortable answering? You don't have to tell me, like, 'This costs X extra dollars.' Yeah. I mean, well, clearly those three films aren't out yet, so one is not fueling the other. But, I mean, there's three answers here. One is, my heroes for artists, whether it's musicians or novelists or filmmakers, they're all prolific. That's just what I dig, right?

And I love reading a novelist who's written a lot and written in a similar manner. Not that they have a shared universe, but they are, like, one story talks to the other.

You know what I mean? You see... Yeah, yeah, I read a lot of pulp sci-fi stuff and I'll see it a lot with, like, Mack Reynolds always writes about communism in, like, four different books.

And it's fun to see him just get this stuff out. Sometimes it's not good, sometimes it's great, but it's always interesting and it's always, like, in a vein of itself.

Yeah, yeah. And I also, I'm sure you must see this, but I see even when that artist might make a quote-unquote misstep, you then see later work and you're like, 'Oh, I see what they did. They learned something from that lesser work that's in the bigger one.'

And again I'm going to use an Impressionist example, but, like, how many water lilies did Monet paint, right? And you're like, 'This dude's just painting freaking water lilies in his garden.'

And near the end of his life there was a museum in Paris that, it's like a three—there's one room that's a huge room and it's a three-, almost 360-degree, like you're at his garden with all the water lilies everywhere.

And he would only be able to have painted that crowning life achievement. You know, he would not have been able to do it if he didn't paint all those other water lilies.

And I'm a big fan of that model. And it's sort of—and again, one's not better than the other. Like Leonard Cohen takes a year to write half a song, whereas Bob Dylan is eating a cheeseburger in a café and writing, like, an album's worth. You know, it's just different temperaments.

But those are the artists I really get inspired by. But number two is there's good pressure, and I've talked about good pressure on a film. And the good pressure is some of the stuff we talked about, like problem-solving creatively.

I love that. Even in a weird way, like, we lost the actress. Okay, what's the next step? How do we figure this out? Are you losing the light? Let's go across the street. We'll figure this out.

Because it's similar to writing: it's being in the moment and problem-solving. That pressure is [unclear]. And we've all done this where it's like, 'My God, I have spent a fortune on this one film, on this one location.'

'And if this film doesn't win Sundance, get me a three-picture deal with ICM, and set me up to direct the franchise movie, then not only am I broke, but I'm never being creative for a good decade.'

And why that's such a bad pressure is because it informs every other decision, and then you're suddenly making decisions based on 'What is the agent at ICM going to like?' or 'What is this [unclear] viewer in...?'

And it kills everything, and you can never get better. Like, you're never going to get to that Monet 360 piece of art because you're just frozen. Because it's kind of like, you know, when you're dating, if you go out and be like, 'Okay, if you're single and you're like, I really want to find somebody to settle down with...'

'I gotta get married in six months, or in a year, and I gotta find the perfect person.' Or do you just be yourself and join some, you know, join a D&D club or a wine club or an [unclear] club or whatever it is you like, and just be yourself? And maybe it will never happen, but you will have more fun experiences.

And if you did meet somebody, that person will be the one, versus somebody that some dating service that was expensive matched up with. So that's a weird analogy. And I still, again, I evangelize this type of filmmaking that you and I've been doing these past few years to everyone. Because people treat films as if they're the end of something, you know, like, 'Oh, you did a short,' or 'You wrote a script,' or...

You wrote a script, or you, I don't know, you did a play—I don't know what it is—but then you're working toward your feature. It's like, no, features are their own thing. When you're a painter you don't just draw with pencils, and then if somebody likes it enough they'll give you the money to start painting with oils. That's not the way it works. There's two different types of skills. So when you're making a feature film, and at this level that we're doing it, you can make a good feature for not a lot of money, so the pressure is kind of off. I mean, it's annoying if nobody wants to watch it.

If nobody watches it and you've spent, you know, $8,000 on this movie, but it's not insurmountable, or whatever it is, or even $3,000, $2,000—however much money you spend on this movie is not a lot.

Yeah, but you're making the feature, and maybe it's not the best feature in the world, but you've got enough left in the tank to make another one, and then another one, and then another one. And they're sustainable in that way, in the fact that you're kind of trickling it out. And sure, you're not preparing yourself for that...

You're not preparing yourself for the Marvel film, but, I mean, how many people have directed a Marvel film? But you kind of are, because what you're saying, Todd, is, like, by doing it you get better at it.

You're not going to be able to make your masterpiece until you've painted whatever. So, like, the real value is just doing it. Because I get the idea.

I went to de facto film school and all of us were like, 'We just gotta make that one feature. You make the one feature and then people will fall at your feet and then you'll do whatever.' And it's never how it works. You need to make the mid stuff, you need to just make things. And even if you make an $8,000 feature and nobody sees it, and then a $10,000 feature and nobody sees it, every new feature you make, I think it gives you the calling card of, 'Oh, well, I've done it.' When I was making LITOM...

It was my first time out, so we'd go and say, 'Hey, we're making a movie,' and it was like, 'Well, have you done it before?'

'Oh no? Well, get the fuck out of here.' But every other time you do it, like, 'Oh, have you made something?' 'Yes, it's this, yes, it's this.' And it doesn't—the quality doesn't matter so much as the end product. Not the end in kind of way, but the fact you have an item that you can be like, 'I made this.'

Yeah. And so long as you learned the lesson. Yeah, because people also treat it like a ladder. Yes. That filmmaking is a ladder. So, okay, you've made a $5,000 feature, now your next one's going to be ten, and then the one after that's going to be twenty, and the one after that's going to be a hundred. I mean, assuming that people even get that far, which they won't. But it's like, you don't need to. There are things you can improve making a $5,000 movie every single year or every other year.

There are improvements that can be made that have nothing to do with the budget, you know what I mean? Like, and people are like, 'When are you going to make your big movie?' It's like, well, maybe...

Maybe I'm just trying to figure out how to make a movie in general, right? But even, like, jumping from, say, five grand for a movie to ten grand for a movie, you can learn how to spend that money more appropriately. Like, if you shoot a movie for five grand with a crew of five...

You shoot a movie for ten grand and make sure you have a better camera, or just make sure everyone gets fed, or make sure everyone gets paid so they're happier, you know? Like, whatever it is, you can upgrade the logistics of it. You can increase the production value of what you see as opposed to just like, 'Oh, now I have money, so now you can...'

'Have an assistant go get me sandwiches.' I think a lot of people get hung up on 'I need to do X, Y, and Z budget number,' where it's the production model. Like, let's say tomorrow I was doing a...

$300,000 film. Yeah, there'd be a bigger crew and more of an infrastructure, but the actual day-to-day, if I'm able to produce it like I would want to, and not as a gun for hire...

Remarkably similar. I don't want to go back. It would be nice to have a marketing budget. It would be nice to have some talent who the audience has a familiarity with for some of the roles, that would bring them in to sit down and rent the movie. But overall, like...

This is what I love. I mean, this is—yes, I want this. I want these—I have a plan and I've got films that I'm planning to be a bit more commercial and to get bigger, hopefully. But I mean, I can't imagine not doing it. Like, this is not shocking that this is what I'm doing decades later from the playground, right? Because this is all I was doing, right? So...

They're just hopefully a little more watchable than [unclear].

I think it helps to get to bigger projects. I really do believe that. But take all that other side, it's fun. I mean, some people like sitting on a beach and getting a sunburn in South Carolina every summer for a week, and that's like, 'This is, this is...' Yeah, I mean, I'm being a little flippant because it's much more than that, but I just love it. I absolutely love it, and again, being the person who's been pretty much...

The person who's been preaching this to everybody I can talk to: it's fun. And that's what makes it sustainable—fun. It's enjoyable. Yeah, it's fun because it should be fun. Marketing, success, independent films are not fun. Robb, it's fun. Kidding. You know, that point about being—I know with writing, like, if you're having trouble on a scene writing, and you can just every—like, that's the one scene where you're just bored writing it and you're just, 'I'll get to it the next draft,' and the next draft, that scene will never work.

I mean, you might get it so that it's placeable and it moves the plot on, but it's never going to be a great scene because it's not fun. Like, and I'm not saying, when I say fun, I don't mean...

It's just like it has to be a comedy or anything. I just mean interesting. Yeah. And I've found that all the time. If I'm bored writing it, if I'm not having fun—and it doesn't correlate directly, because, look, there are tough days on even these film shoots for whatever reason—but compared to the tough days...

On a... When it's your one film, and if this doesn't work, and if you don't get into Sundance, this is all... This is wonderful. And I'm always amazed because I started the conversation talking about this technology with the cameras and the microphones, and it's like, my God, you know what I mean? I've been talking about...

Impressionists and stuff, but any artist for the last 2,000 years would be like, 'What an amazing time that you guys—damn you! Why didn't we get born then?' Because you get to make movies, and you get to do it without a crew of 50 and trying to raise millions of dollars. That's crazy. You know? I mean, just, I'm still amazed by it. It's just like, wow, that's magic. Yeah. Okay, so let's wrap this thing up. But one, I do want to do this advice...

if we're going into the Indie Film Lodge time machine, what would you tell yourself as an early filmmaker? We've sort of gotten to some of it, but can you distill it into one thing?

Be yourself. Look at that. That's good. Yeah, yeah, I'd agree with that too. Well, yeah. So, Robb, this is a—Robb, Robb, shut up. Todd, this has been wonderful. Yes, it's just... Yeah.

Tell us—not us, but tell people at home—where they can find the movie and, more importantly, where they can find you on the interwebs. Sure. The movie is called Gap Weekend. It's available on Amazon, Tubi, Spectrum, all the kind of platforms like that.

Kanopy, there's new platforms it's on every day. Or you can rent it from your local library. It's very fun and you should check it out. And if you want to find out more about the work that's coming that we've been hinting at...

Throughout this, it's—my website is toddnorwood.net. Don't go to dot-com. That Todd Norwood does a lot of risqué fashion photography in New York City. Not that...

Todd. It's the toddnorwood.net. And actually, yeah, there's going to be a lot of stuff. I am releasing the new films shortly. I have some shorts that I've been sitting on that are coming out, and I have some...

Sequel novelizations of my previous movie, Chasing the Sun, that's coming out later in the year as well. So I finally got lots of stuff going on, and knock on wood, every year is my...

New Year's—New Year's resolution that I'm going to do a YouTube channel for just putting my stuff out there, and I'm hoping to do that shortly. And maybe someday you could get a better...

Instagram handle for yourself so that you'd be easier to tag and all the things that you should get tagged in. That's right, yeah, yeah, all of the things. But Todd Norwood...

That is the spot to go, right? Sweet. So, yeah, does it for us, right? I think so. So if you want to find us, if you have any questions about filmmaking or movies in general, please email us at...

indiefilmlodge@gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you. May even feature your question on a future show. And in the meantime, tell your friends about us and remember: the only thing holding you back is you, so get out...

There and shoot your feature. I'm Matt, and I'm Robb, and we'll see you next time. Thanks, Todd. We did it.

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